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| Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"If the next 'Tomkins' was found in Hull, you're telling me that Wigan, Saint, Wire even Leeds and Hudds wouldn't try to recruit him for their team?'"
No we'd certainly all be after the same player without a doubt,but the Rhinos wouldn't win the race if it was purely based on the money offered.
Although the Rhinos have learnt how to win major trophies and on a regular basis too without having to do this |
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| Quote DaveO="DaveO"In RU the deal with BT Vision to take the sport away from Sky is what is funding their ambition to pay players more money. They want to pay the level of soccers fist division clubs to attract the talent but the key point is they are getting the money into the sport in general and dividing it up. Not relying on sugar daddies to provide the cash. '"
I disagree, Rugby Union is far more reliant on sugar daddies than Rugby League and most clubs would not be paying anywhere near the salary cap in that sport if it wasnt for them. The RU clubs on the whole lose vast amounts of money and most would be out of business if it wasnt for their sugar daddies. Even some clubs that are now holding their heads above water are only doing so because of the vast amounts of money that has been spent in previous years by their sugar daddies to get them to that position. |
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| Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"Rather than have exemption of youth coming through, have it on proximity to said club, it stops the rich clubs going across the country hoovering up the best talent.'"
Meanwhile good youngsters outside the heartlands struggle to get picked up at the expense of worse players near SL clubs who wouldn't count against the cap. |
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| Quote Famous="Famous"I disagree, Rugby Union is far more reliant on sugar daddies than Rugby League and most clubs would not be paying anywhere near the salary cap in that sport if it wasnt for them. The RU clubs on the whole lose vast amounts of money and most would be out of business if it wasnt for their sugar daddies. Even some clubs that are now holding their heads above water are only doing so because of the vast amounts of money that has been spent in previous years by their sugar daddies to get them to that position.'"
Do a Google search on the BT Vision deal with RU and you will soon see the idea Ru is reliant on sugar daddies is yesterdays news. Clubs are going to get a 50% increase in income right from the off.
RU administrators have stated they intend to use the cash from BT Vision deal exactly as I said to allow their clubs to pay higher wages.
It is a £152m deal over three years.
That is the sort of cash injection required in RL to allow it to increase the salary cap by a meaningful amount to allow it to compete for talent long term. My point is it won't get anything like that amount from RL's so-called sugar daddies. |
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I'm pretty sure IL said at a fans forum that when there is a vote on the SC he votes for an increase in line with the rate of inflation.
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| Quote DaveO="DaveO"Do a Google search on the BT Vision deal with RU and you will soon see the idea Ru is reliant on sugar daddies is yesterdays news. Clubs are going to get a 50% increase in income right from the off.
RU administrators have stated they intend to use the cash from BT Vision deal exactly as I said to allow their clubs to pay higher wages.
It is a £152m deal over three years.
That is the sort of cash injection required in RL to allow it to increase the salary cap by a meaningful amount to allow it to compete for talent long term. My point is it won't get anything like that amount from RL's so-called sugar daddies.'"
I dont think that this TV deal is anywhere near as good as you seem to think and there are still an awful lot of unanswered questions about it, even the figure of £152m is disputed with some saying that it doesnt mean £152m in cash but overall value with things like marketing, technical support and community schemes included. The deal is also for £152m over 4 years, not the 3 that you state, and it is for far more than just the Rugby Union Premiership, including things like European competition and sevens. Also they will not get a 50% increase in income, like you state, right from the off. Broadcast revenue may go up but that is totally different to total overall income and I would definately take all the PR spin that the likes of Mark McCafferty come out with with a pinch of salt.
The deal includes a 3 year deal for all European matches that involve English clubs which means bye, bye Heinekan Cup and either a Heinekan Cup under a different name (if they can get the other nations on board which seeing they are all peeved off with this deal is up for debate) or at worst an Anglo French cup. However whatever they do they are setting a 1/3 of this 152m aside to split with the Celtic Nations and/or French to try and get them on board, which is obviously going to divert a good chunk of the TV deal away from the English clubs. In particular the ones that cant get into Europe and are already struggling financially, i.e the ones that need it the most and are already reliant on benefactors, will be hardest hit. The rich may indeed get richer but the vast majority of English clubs will fall further and further behind.
This TV deal has an awful lot of implications for RU and most certainly do not seem to think that it is a good deal, there are very few fans who are keen on this deal and most seem to think it is no where near as good as it may initially seem. The contract is also disputed by European Rugby Cup, who oversee the Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cup tournaments and the RFU have also refused to ratify the deal.
RU will still be reliant on sugar daddies and this TV deal will do little to change that. The last lot of figures that I can find show that out of the 12 RU clubs 7 lost well more than a million with 10 of the 12 making losses. Any extra money from TV revenue wont even cover these losses, never mind paying for the salary cap to go up. The sugar daddies walk away and the majority of RU clubs would go bust with or without this new TV deal. In a way though I suppose the RU clubs were pushed into this as Sky offered RU less money than the last TV deal and the RU clubs are desperate for money. |
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| Good informative post.
I suppose one thing that Union are good at is bigging up their sponsorship deals so that, at least to the untrained eye, they look brilliant. That way, when they come to the next round of negotiations with other sponsors, they've got a strong platform. They build an impression that they have got a product worth throwing millions at - even if it's boring s***.
The RFL give away their sponsorship for nothing then tell every man and his dog about it  |
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| Quote Famous="Famous"I dont think that this TV deal is anywhere near as good as you seem to think and there are still an awful lot of unanswered questions about it, even the figure of £152m is disputed with some saying that it doesnt mean £152m in cash but overall value with things like marketing, technical support and community schemes included. The deal is also for £152m over 4 years, not the 3 that you state, and it is for far more than just the Rugby Union Premiership, including things like European competition and sevens. Also they will not get a 50% increase in income, like you state, right from the off. Broadcast revenue may go up but that is totally different to total overall income and I would definately take all the PR spin that the likes of Mark McCafferty come out with with a pinch of salt.'"
Yes your right it is four years note three. It is for 69 Arriva premiership games a year and European games featuring UK sides from 2014 and the rights to screen matches from a sevens competition.
It's still £38m a year going into the sport and it is definitely going to be used to increase their salary cap.
"It will mean an increase of 50% in television revenue for our clubs and means we can look at the salary cap [which is £4.5m plus add-ons for the season after next. Our aim has for a long time been to put ourselves on a par with football's [second tier Championship and we are well on our way."
From here
[urlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/sep/12/premiership-rugby-bt-deal-broadcast[/url
Quote FamousRU will still be reliant on sugar daddies and this TV deal will do little to change that. '"
Rubbish. A 50% increase in TV revenue and the amount of money this will inject into the game means exactly the opposite.
It doesn't really matter though from an RL point of view. The fact remains in order to compete with RU and NRL salary caps RL needs to find a lot of cash from outside the sport because RL's sugar daddies are not going to bankroll the sport to the required extent. You can seek crumbs of comfort on RU clubs balance sheets if you want but they aren't going away. |
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| Another new investor at Bradford to give the club a six figure sum.
[urlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21699726[/url
Disgraceful, the sport doesn't want these kind of sugar daddy offerings  |
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Another thing which I have noticed in recent years re the salary cap is that on club's accounts the Salaries figure goes up each year. So if the top 25 playing staff have theirs fixed at £1.65m then the increase is coming from the non playing staff.
Can't think of much dafter than that which leave us in no doubt that the SC needs either a radical improvement or better still its abolition.
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| Quote Orrell Lad="Orrell Lad"Another new investor at Bradford to give the club a six figure sum.
[urlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21699726[/url
Disgraceful, the sport doesn't want these kind of sugar daddy offerings
'"
Sugar Mummy?  |
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| Quote DaveO="DaveO"Yes your right it is four years note three. It is for 69 Arriva premiership games a year and European games featuring UK sides from 2014 and the rights to screen matches from a sevens competition.
It's still £38m a year going into the sport and it is definitely going to be used to increase their salary cap.
"It will mean an increase of 50% in television revenue for our clubs and means we can look at the salary cap [which is £4.5m plus add-ons for the season after next. Our aim has for a long time been to put ourselves on a par with football's [second tier Championship and we are well on our way."
From here
[urlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/sep/12/premiership-rugby-bt-deal-broadcast[/url
Rubbish. A 50% increase in TV revenue and the amount of money this will inject into the game means exactly the opposite.
It doesn't really matter though from an RL point of view. The fact remains in order to compete with RU and NRL salary caps RL needs to find a lot of cash from outside the sport because RL's sugar daddies are not going to bankroll the sport to the required extent. You can seek crumbs of comfort on RU clubs balance sheets if you want but they aren't going away.'"
You should really do a little research before denouncing other people's posts as rubbish. Just spouting nonsense like, “A 50% increase in TV revenue and the amount of money this will inject into the game means exactly the opposite”, without having any grasp of the figures involved and just making presumptions based on PR spin is really what is rubbish. I also don’t see why you are so quick to believe the PR spin anyway from a Rugby Premiership that is desperately trying to get people on board and sell a very unpopular deal. I am sure you would be a damn site more critical if the RFL or Super League made such statements.
The English RU clubs lost £16.2m for the year ending June 2011 and £21m in 2010. The profit and losses for each club, for their last set of figures, are shown below:
Club Operating Profit/loss ()
Bath (1.8m)
Exeter Chiefs 0.9m
Gloucester 0.6m
Harlequins (1.6m)
Leicester Tigers 0.6m
London Irish (1.1m)
London Wasps* (3.1m)
Newcastle Falcons (1.6m)
Northampton Saints 0.9m
Sale Sharks* (1.6m)
Saracens (5.6m)
Worcester Warriors (2.8m)
Therefore 7 clubs reported a deficit of more than £1.5 million. At the very, very best, and with all the PR spin to try and sell this BT deal to the fans, the RFU, the ERC and the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French and Italians (all of which are against the deal), it is reported that this deal may be worth up to an extra million per club at best. It will probably be a lot less when they put even more in the European pot to placate these nations.
Therefore please tell me how Rugby Union clubs won’t need sugar daddies to make up what is still a significant shortfall on even their current spending? How will they be able to raise the salary cap without sugar daddies providing the extra? Various clubs don’t even spend anywhere near the current salary cap as it is and various owners have scaled back their backing because they can’t sustain it. How will these clubs fund spending an ever bigger cap without a sugar daddy?
As for the Rugby Union Premiership matching even Championship football don’t make me laugh. Attendances don’t even compare and the average salary is £85,000 per year in the Premiership compared to £250,000 in Football’s Championship. It is as far away now as it was years ago when it first started to make such statements. |
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| Quote Famous="Famous"You should really do a little research before denouncing other people's posts as rubbish. Just spouting nonsense like, “A 50% increase in TV revenue and the amount of money this will inject into the game means exactly the opposite”, without having any grasp of the figures involved and just making presumptions based on PR spin is really what is rubbish. I also don’t see why you are so quick to believe the PR spin anyway from a Rugby Premiership that is desperately trying to get people on board and sell a very unpopular deal. I am sure you would be a damn site more critical if the RFL or Super League made such statements. '"
Well given I have given you links to illustrate my point and all I see from you is unsubstantiated opinion I think the one who needs to do some research as you put it is you.
You also are ignoring the core point that is regardless of where the money comes from RU and the NRL operate salary caps far higher than ours and that, as I have said, is the fundamental issue.
If you want to live in a dream world where RU suddenly implodes I really don't care because it isn't going to. Not only do they have the cash from the BT Vision deal they have the cash from the RFU that comes from the Internationals.
I also know, first hand, what the later means. As you may know my son played for Chester RU and I know for a fact the RFU are matching investment by the club pound for pound to purchase additional training fields and that will cost a six figure sum. This is way off Premiership RU so when it comes to money and RU you need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Quote FamousTherefore 7 clubs reported a deficit of more than £1.5 million.'"
7 x 1.5 = 10.5. Bit Vision = 38. What is your point?
Quote Famous At the very, very best, and with all the PR spin to try and sell this BT deal to the fans, the RFU, the ERC and the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French and Italians (all of which are against the deal), it is reported that this deal may be worth up to an extra million per club at best. It will probably be a lot less when they put even more in the European pot to placate these nations. '"
A million at best? 38 goes down to 12? So the premiership clubs left Sky to go to BT for less money? That is what you are saying here which is obviously completely bonkers.
Quote FamousTherefore please tell me how Rugby Union clubs won’t need sugar daddies to make up what is still a significant shortfall on even their current spending? How will they be able to raise the salary cap without sugar daddies providing the extra? Various clubs don’t even spend anywhere near the current salary cap as it is and various owners have scaled back their backing because they can’t sustain it. How will these clubs fund spending an ever bigger cap without a sugar daddy?
As for the Rugby Union Premiership matching even Championship football don’t make me laugh. Attendances don’t even compare and the average salary is £85,000 per year in the Premiership compared to £250,000 in Football’s Championship. It is as far away now as it was years ago when it first started to make such statements.'"
Attendances don't matter a jot. Have you not realised that yet? How much money does Wigan Athletic get from gate receipts as opposed to TV revenue?
Honestly, you don't think you know what you are talking about when it comes to the finances of pro sport. You just can't seem to grasp two things. 1. The RU and NRL salary caps are what they are and so whether you think RU clubs are bankrupt in all but name doesn't matter. And 2. Both the NRL and RU are only able to afford these high salary caps not because of sugar daddies but because of external sponsorship which is in the most part direct from TV deals. |
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Quote DaveO="DaveO"Well given I have given you links to illustrate my point and all I see from you is unsubstantiated opinion I think the one who needs to do some research as you put it is you.
'"
Your initial post was factually incorrect and your subsequent posts have been incorrect and instead of just admitting you were wrong, something which you always seem reluctant to do, you are now attempting to compare apples with oranges. You selectively quote to get out of answering difficult points and constantly try to shift the argument from what it was I originally disagreed with. You have given one link and made a whole lot of presumptions which are not actually based upon any facts in that link. I have provided facts and figures to back up what I say and everything I have posted is freely available, if you had researched it I am very surprised you haven’t come across it.
Quote DaveO="DaveO"7 x 1.5 = 10.5. Bit Vision = 38. What is your point?
A million at best? 38 goes down to 12? So the premiership clubs left Sky to go to BT for less money? That is what you are saying here which is obviously completely bonkers.'"
That is not what I am saying and this is just typical nonsense from yourself which shows you have absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about and it does make me wonder if you are just being deliberately obtuse. Where did I say anything about a reduction in money or clubs only getting a million? To save you the trouble of actually reading, and understanding, what I posted I said that this deal may be worth up to an extra million at best.
You seem to be under the illusion that the Rugby Union Premiership clubs don’t currently have a TV deal for the Premiership and Heineken Cup and that any BT Vision money is new money. Well sorry it doesn’t work like that and when your idol Mark McCafferty talks about a 50% increase in TV revenue (Of course there is no PR spin with that figure) he is talking about an increase on what they currently get and the new deal is just an increase on this, not an extra £38 million like you seem to think going by your illustration above. Depending on success English clubs could have got anywhere from £8.7 million to £14 million a year from the Heineken Cup anyway and a further £18 million for the Premiership.
www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... -deal.html
www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/de ... ship-rugby
Also as I have said at least a 1/3 of this BT Vision money is going into the European pot to placate the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French and Italians and get them on board so its not all going to go to English clubs and so English clubs will have considerably less than £38 million to share each year. Sky offered less money to Rugby Union this time around than the last deal and I suspect, based on everything that I have read, that there is an awful lot of PR spin to try and sell this deal to the fans, RFU, other European Nations and some Premiership clubs and that it is not as good as the headline figure that Mark McCafferty is spouting. I certainly would be just as critical if Nigel Wood was making the same claims with the same facts.
I said that 7 clubs reported a deficit of more than £1.5 million, another was £1.1 million and the combined losses were £16.2 million for the year ending June 2011.
www.espnscrum.com/premiership-20 ... 64350.html
Quite why you think it’s just a case of 7 x 1.5 million I have no idea but I suppose it is just another example of a lack of understanding. As I said previously this deal is worth an extra £1 miilion to clubs
www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... -flat.html
Therefore as I asked previously, if this deal is worth up to £1 million per club how will they no longer be reliant on sugar daddies when this amount doesn’t even cover their current losses? How can they afford an even bigger salary cap without a sugar daddy?
Quote DaveO="DaveO"Attendances don't matter a jot. Have you not realised that yet? How much money does Wigan Athletic get from gate receipts as opposed to TV revenue? '"
I never said they did but this is just another example of you arguing for arguments sake. What are you even trying to argue here? Its just another example of you comparing apples and oranges. In my post I just did some research, instead of blindly following PR statements from the head of Premiership Rugby Union, and am just giving two examples of why the Rugby Union clubs are no where near matching Championship Football clubs. Do wages not matter either then? When a Rugby Union club spends £30+ million on wages and when the average wage is anywhere near that of Championship Football clubs, never mind attendances, then maybe they can argue. Quite what Wigan Athletic have got to do with it I don’t know but if average wages and attendances are both a damn site higher then that suggests turnover is too. Oh by the way the current Football League deal is £195 over 3 years and that is a deal signed pre BT Vision with no competitiors. I cant even think of a single area where Premiership Rugby Union clubs have the edge over Championship Football clubs.
Quote DaveO="DaveO"Honestly, you don't think you know what you are talking about when it comes to the finances of pro sport. '"
Based on your posts on this thread this surely has to be a joke. |
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Quote DaveO="DaveO"Well given I have given you links to illustrate my point and all I see from you is unsubstantiated opinion I think the one who needs to do some research as you put it is you.
'"
Your initial post was factually incorrect and your subsequent posts have been incorrect and instead of just admitting you were wrong, something which you always seem reluctant to do, you are now attempting to compare apples with oranges. You selectively quote to get out of answering difficult points and constantly try to shift the argument from what it was I originally disagreed with. You have given one link and made a whole lot of presumptions which are not actually based upon any facts in that link. I have provided facts and figures to back up what I say and everything I have posted is freely available, if you had researched it I am very surprised you haven’t come across it.
Quote DaveO="DaveO"7 x 1.5 = 10.5. Bit Vision = 38. What is your point?
A million at best? 38 goes down to 12? So the premiership clubs left Sky to go to BT for less money? That is what you are saying here which is obviously completely bonkers.'"
That is not what I am saying and this is just typical nonsense from yourself which shows you have absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about and it does make me wonder if you are just being deliberately obtuse. Where did I say anything about a reduction in money or clubs only getting a million? To save you the trouble of actually reading, and understanding, what I posted I said that this deal may be worth up to an extra million at best.
You seem to be under the illusion that the Rugby Union Premiership clubs don’t currently have a TV deal for the Premiership and Heineken Cup and that any BT Vision money is new money. Well sorry it doesn’t work like that and when your idol Mark McCafferty talks about a 50% increase in TV revenue (Of course there is no PR spin with that figure) he is talking about an increase on what they currently get and the new deal is just an increase on this, not an extra £38 million like you seem to think going by your illustration above. Depending on success English clubs could have got anywhere from £8.7 million to £14 million a year from the Heineken Cup anyway and a further £18 million for the Premiership.
www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... -deal.html
www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/de ... ship-rugby
Also as I have said at least a 1/3 of this BT Vision money is going into the European pot to placate the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French and Italians and get them on board so its not all going to go to English clubs and so English clubs will have considerably less than £38 million to share each year. Sky offered less money to Rugby Union this time around than the last deal and I suspect, based on everything that I have read, that there is an awful lot of PR spin to try and sell this deal to the fans, RFU, other European Nations and some Premiership clubs and that it is not as good as the headline figure that Mark McCafferty is spouting. I certainly would be just as critical if Nigel Wood was making the same claims with the same facts.
I said that 7 clubs reported a deficit of more than £1.5 million, another was £1.1 million and the combined losses were £16.2 million for the year ending June 2011.
www.espnscrum.com/premiership-20 ... 64350.html
Quite why you think it’s just a case of 7 x 1.5 million I have no idea but I suppose it is just another example of a lack of understanding. As I said previously this deal is worth an extra £1 miilion to clubs
www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... -flat.html
Therefore as I asked previously, if this deal is worth up to £1 million per club how will they no longer be reliant on sugar daddies when this amount doesn’t even cover their current losses? How can they afford an even bigger salary cap without a sugar daddy?
Quote DaveO="DaveO"Attendances don't matter a jot. Have you not realised that yet? How much money does Wigan Athletic get from gate receipts as opposed to TV revenue? '"
I never said they did but this is just another example of you arguing for arguments sake. What are you even trying to argue here? Its just another example of you comparing apples and oranges. In my post I just did some research, instead of blindly following PR statements from the head of Premiership Rugby Union, and am just giving two examples of why the Rugby Union clubs are no where near matching Championship Football clubs. Do wages not matter either then? When a Rugby Union club spends £30+ million on wages and when the average wage is anywhere near that of Championship Football clubs, never mind attendances, then maybe they can argue. Quite what Wigan Athletic have got to do with it I don’t know but if average wages and attendances are both a damn site higher then that suggests turnover is too. Oh by the way the current Football League deal is £195 over 3 years and that is a deal signed pre BT Vision with no competitiors. I cant even think of a single area where Premiership Rugby Union clubs have the edge over Championship Football clubs.
Quote DaveO="DaveO"Honestly, you don't think you know what you are talking about when it comes to the finances of pro sport. '"
Based on your posts on this thread this surely has to be a joke. | |
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